Curse

Sha Noran · Jun 28, 2008, 05:49 AM // 05:49

MODS: I was originally going to post this thread in The Campfire, however there seem to be some technical difficulties on that board at the moment. Please feel free to move this thread to where it best belongs once things settle down.

Firstly, I would like to state that this is not a joke. Though retired mostly from the game lately, I still amuse myself by being aware of the goings-on in GW and within the community. In the past few weeks I've been rather busy IRL, but after some catching up on the boards and with some friends of mine, I can see that things are going just about as I estimated in my "open letter" a few months back; to the degree, in fact, that my good friend and fellow GW veteran Avarre composed an eloquant part 2 in the hopes that he could have more luck garnering a response than I. <If you somehow have no idea what I'm talking about, perhaps investigate http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq and http://tinyurl.com/6klhtf.>

In all honestly I aplaud Regina for issuing a response to Avarre's thread before it's demise; that's a step more than your predecessor would take, that is, to acknowledge (if only to dismiss) those who are not necessarily their happiest with your company. I can only hope that the gap which exists between player and company Avarre and I (and many others) are concerned about can be continually narrowed.

That said, I have been lately considering the path your company has been demonstrating they are most interested in pursuing, and I have decided that since I am advocating an increase in player-company relations, I will offer my advice regarding a previous non-issue that has quite suddenly been made into an issue: PvE Balance.

In the past, I have left it to those well known in the PvP community to issue lengthy posts regarding skill balance in this game, because until the skills were split into two entirely different sets, it was frankly more of a concern to those heavily involved with GvG (and HA, to a lesser extent). Now, however, with two seperate skill lists to keep balanced for two seperate playing environments, it must be daunting to re-evaluate balancing decisions accross three years, three games, and an expansion; perhaps my memory, experience and blatant addiction to it all can be of assistance.

Before I start to list the balancing suggestions I've had bouncing around in my head, I would like to say that my view is that PvE has been sacrificed as an environment designed to provide a challenge, and is now merely a playground where devastating skill combinations and simple player tactics are the status-quo. The split brought us a few things that had been previously designed as impossible (Shadow Form forever, Ether Renewal providing positive energy gain infinitely, etc.), and thus I can only assume you're throwing your hands up at the consistant and inevitable power creep that your game's design suffers from, and are now willing to sacrifice reasonable skill power levels to allow more people to have fun.

Well then ANet, let's not leave anyone out. You shouldn't have to yell something about "morphing time" to be allowed in the modern game's power farming groups when there is such a diverse skill list already available. There's a huge problem in PvE (and there always has been...) with group (PUG specifically) discrimination due to build variation. The goal I had in mind while I worked out this balance was simply to give every class more skills that are good enough to consider using. Since competitive balance is no longer an issue, please, please stop and answer one question for yourself before you reflexively consider this ridiculous: Why not?

Note: All variables will be listed in the format of attribute level 0...12...16 because I'm a strong believer in COMMON SENSE.

Note: {E} denotes elite skill status.

Final Note: I will give a brief explaination for the suggested changes after each class, as trying to explain things skill by skill will cause this to be far too cluttered for any of you to read.

Warrior

Strength

"I Meant to Do That!" - Changed functionality to "If you are knocked down, you gain 1...3...5 strikes of adrenaline, are no longer Blind, and are no longer Crippled."

"I Will Avenge You!" - Reduced recharge time to 30 seconds.

"I Will Survive!" - Changed functionality to "If you are suffering from a condition or a hex, you cannot lose more than 10% max health due to damage from a single attack or spell." Decreased duration to 1...9...14

"You Will Die!" - Changed functionality to "If target foe is below 50% health, you move 10% faster and deal 10% more damage for the next 0...10...14 seconds."

Dolyak Signet - Increased armor gained to +10...+50...+75.

Dwarven Battle Stance {E} - Added the effect "you cannot be knocked down".

Endure Pain - Increased duration to 5...16...20. Decreased recharge time to 25 seconds.

Signet of Strength - Increased damage bonus to +10.

Warrior's Cunning - Increased duration to 0...12...16. Decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.

Axe Mastery

Agonizing Chop - Decreased activation time to .5 second.

Critical Chop - Decreased activation time to .5 second.

Disrupting Chop - Decreased activation time to .5 second.

Hammer Mastery

Belly Smash - Decreased recharge to 20 seconds.

Devastating Hammer {E} - Also causes a Deep Wound for a duration equal to that of the Weakness variable.

Enraged Smash {E} - Remove maximum bonus limit.

Swordsmanship

Hamstring - Decreased Cripple duration to 1...8...12. Decreased recharge to 10 seconds.

Hundred Blades {E} - Decreased recharge to 5 seconds. Unblockable.

Tactics

"Charge!" {E} - Decreased recharge to 15 seconds.

"Fear Me!" - Removed recharge.

"None Shall Pass!" - Decreased recharge to 30 seconds.

"Retreat!" - Increased duration to 5...12...18

"Shields Up!" - Restore previous functionality, i.e. "For 5...14...20 seconds, all allies within earshot gain 50% chance to block incoming projectile attacks."

"Victory Is Mine!" - Restore previous functionality, i.e. "You gain 10...50...68 Health and 2...5...7 Energy for each Condition suffered by nearby foes"

Deflect Arrows - Change functionality to "For 1...7...10 seconds, you have a 75% chance to block incoming projectile attacks. For each attack blocked in this way, you gain adrenaline (half strike)." Increased recharge to 20 seconds.

No Attribute

Symbolic Strike - Removed damage bonus maximum.

Notes on Warrior: Frankly, the Assassin and Paragon's skill lists strip many Warrior's of purpose. It's been a long time since I've seen a good Warrior in PvE who wasn't either a Dragon Slash lulzmobile of infinite adrenaline and "Save Yourselves!" or an Earthshaker guy lining up KDs where they count. The changes I've listed here simply bring a few key skills up to the level of the current PvE meta, allowing Warriors some flexibility in their skill bars, instead of just in their dance moves.

Some skills I attempted to revert to a usable PvE state that were devastatingly nerfed in the aim for PvP balance, for example "Victory Is Mine!" {E}, "Shields Up!", "Fear Me!", while others have never seen much play at all due to their purpose being completely stomped by other skills, i.e. Hundred Blades {E} actually being worse than Sun and Moon Slash. Most changes other than that were an attempt to make some skills playable that simply have no use in their current form (and never will without a change of some kind).

Ranger

Expertise

Archer's Signet {E} - Moved to Marksmanship

Marksman's Wager {E} - Moved to Marksmanship

Beast Mastery

Charm Animal - Added a pet ressurection funtionality.

Revive Animal - Removed range; reduced casting time to 4 seconds.

Marksmanship

Barrage {E} - No longer removes Preperations.

Crippling Shot {E} - Reduced recharge to 1 second.

No Attribute

Quick Shot {E} - Reduced attack time to 1/2 second.

Notes on Ranger: Rangers are already very successful in this game, and rarely have too much trouble finding their way into groups; I only saw a few things on the skill list worth tweaking.

Archer's Signet and Marksman's Wager are both skills that are very hard to use effectively due to the fact that the more you increase the attribute they're placed in (Expertise), the less you need them. Placing them in Marksmanship opens up the skills both to Rangers and also to Ranger secondaries, where at least they could theoretically be used.

Barrage really shouldn't remove preperations anymore. I can understand why it did at first, but honestly being able to run Conjure, Judge's, Weapon Spells or whatever other buffs you want with it is even more powerful than preperations would be. I also left Volley as it is; as the non-elite, the removal of preperations should be it's drawback.

Monk

Divine Favor

Aura of Faith {E} - Increased % more health gained to 0...60...80. Reduced energy cost to 5. Reduced casting time to 1/2 second. Reduced recharge to 10 seconds.

Boon Signet {E} - Removed maximum energy gain.

Unyeilding Aura {E} - Reduced casting time to 2 seconds. Reduced recharge to 5 seconds.

Smiting Prayers

Defender's Zeal {E} - Changed functionality to "...whenever target foe attacks, you gain 2 energy."

Ray of Judgement {E} - Reduced recharge to 20 seconds.

Word of Censure {E} - Reduced additional recharge time to 10 seconds.

Zealot's Fire - Removed the "lose 1 energy" clause.

Protection Prayers

Amity {E} - Changed functionality to "Skill. All enemies within earshot stop targetting you. For 8...18...21 seconds, you cannot be their target. This skill ends if you attack."

Life Sheath {E} - Reduced casting time to 1/4 second. Reduced recharge to 4 seconds.

Mark of Protection {E} - Removed Protection Prayers blackout.

No Attribute

Martyr {E} - Reduced recharge to 5 seconds.

Notes on Monk: Most things having to do with Monks are actually impressively balanced, and your initial PvP/PvE split/balance thingy took care of LoD. With these changes, I would hope to encourage players to smite again, while also presenting some skills as options which have never been good enough to consider playable (i.e. Aura of Faith {E}, Unyeilding Aura {E}, Word of Censure {E}, etc.).

As far as that Amity suggestion, I've always enjoyed the notion of that skill being playable, and that would be one way to do it. You could make it work in other ways too, but as it is now, it just has no use.

Necromancer

Curses

Feast of Corruption {E} - Increased energy cost to 25. Decreased recharge to 10 seconds.

Lingering Curse {E} - Reduced energy cost to 15.

Signet of Suffering {E} - Removed maximum damage cap.

Blood Magic

Life Transfer {E} - Reduced recharge to 12 seconds.

Mark of Subversion - Reduced recharge to 15 seconds.

Notes on Necromancer: Necros are one of the two most powerful classes in the current PvE meta, so there's not much to change for them. The changes I've indicated are rather straightforward.

Also, though I made no Death Magic suggestions, I know that it would be an extreme improvement if there were a way to target your own minions more easily. Is it possible to cycle through your minions as targets each time you click on your minion counter? Anything would be great, since there are many skills that might be very interesting if targeting your own minions was made easier.

Mesmer

Domination

Aneurysm - Increased damage per energy to 1...7...9.

Backfire - Reduced recharge time to 10 seconds.

Chaos Storm - Reduced recharge time to 20 seconds.

Diversion - Restored skill functionality versus all foes/skills.

Guilt - Increased range to hex target foe and all adjacent foes.

Hex Eater Vortex {E} - Reduced recharge time to 10 seconds.

Ignorance - Reduced energy cost to 10.

Power Block {E} - Reduced recharge to 10 seconds.

Shame - Increased range to hex target foe and all adjacent foes.

Spiritual Pain - Decreased recharge to 15 seconds.

Visions of Regret {E} - Reduced duration to 3...11...16 seconds. Reduced recharge to 15 seconds. Increased range to target foe and all adjacent foes.

Illusion

Accumulated Pain - Reduced recharge to 10 seconds.

Illusionary Weaponry - Modified skill type to Elite Weapon Spell.

Ineptitude {E} - Reduced recharge to 10 seconds.

Recurring Insecurity {E} - Increased range to hex target foe and all nearby foes.

Inspiration

Energy Tap - Reduced casting time to 1 second.

Extend Conditions {E} - Remove maximum duration.

Hex Eater Signet - Increased range to remove hexes from "allies in the area".

Keystone Signet {E} - Reduced recharge to 10 seconds.

Mantra of Recall {E} - Modified skill type to Elite Stance.

Spirit Shackles - Reduced casting time to 2 seconds.

Spirit of Failure - Reduced casting time to 2 seconds. Decreased recharge to 15 seconds. Increased energy gained to 1...4...5.

Tease {E} - Changed functionality to "Elite Hex Spell. Interrupt target foe's action. If that action was a Spell or Chant, for 10 seconds all of target foes Spells and Chants take an additional 20...84...105% longer to recharge. This hex ends if that foe hits you."

Notes on Mesmer: Mesmer is traditionally underrated in PvE, but for good reason. Most of a Mesmer's skills have been traditionally handicapped to stop them from overpowering everything else in PvP. With the two halves of the game split, however, it's easily acceptable to give the class some increased damage dealing capability without breaking the whole system.

The true key to PvE effeciency lies in AoE, which you clearly displayed that you were aware of when you buffed Clumsiness and Arcane Conundrum to be as such. Giving similar skills such additional power will certainly force them into the PvE meta on at least some Mesmer bars, especially if you take into consideration some possible combinations with certain PvE only skills.

I'm hoping you'll actually consider making Illusionary Weaponry a Weapon Spell. As an enchantment, it's too easily removed to be filling your valuable elite skill slot, especially if you acknowledge that to reasonably run Ill Weps, you're going to have to devote your whole bar to it. Devoting your whole bar to something so easily removed is silly... but as a Weapon Spell, the Ill Weps Mesmer may see a good deal of play; my suggestion for Mantra of Recall is along the same vein.

Sha Noran · Jun 28, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Elementalist

Energy Storage

Ether Prism {E} - Remove maximum energy gained.

Ether Renewal {E} - Decreased energy gained to 0...2...3.

Glyph of Energy {E} - Moved to No Attribute; reverted functionality to "For 15 seconds, your next spell costs 25 less energy and does not cause exhaustion."

Glyph of Lesser Energy - Moved to No Attribute; reverted functionality to "For 15 seconds, your next 2 spells cost 15 less energy to cast."

Air Magic

Chain Lightning - Increased additional number of foes affected to 3.

Gale - Increased knockdown time to 3 seconds.

Glimmering Mark {E} - Increased range to hex target foe and all nearby foes.

Invoke Lightning {E} - Increased additional number of foes affected to 5.

Lightning Surge {E} - Added 25% armor penetration.

Shell Shock - Reduced recharge to 5 seconds.

Storm Djinn's Haste - Increased speed increase to 33%.

Earth Magic

Churning Earth - Decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.

Dragon's Stomp - Decreased casting time to 2 seconds.

Earthen Shackles - Increased range to hex target foe and all adjacent foes.

Earthquake - Decreased casting time to 2 seconds.

Eruption - Decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.

Kinetic Armor - Decreased casting time to 1 second. Decreased recharge time to 30 seconds.

Magnetic Aura - Decreased recharge time to 45 seconds.

Fire Magic

Breath of Fire - Decreased casting time to 1 second. Reduced recharge to 20 seconds.

Double Dragon {E} - Decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.

Elemental Flame - Increased range to hex target foe and all adjacent foes.

Fire Storm - Decreased casting time to 1 second. Reduced recharge to 20 seconds.

Flame Djinn's Haste - Reverted functionality to "All adjacent foes take 15...99...127 damage. For 5...12...15 seconds, you move 33% faster." Reduced recharge time to 15 seconds.

Mark of Rodgort - Reduced recharge time to 8 seconds.

Meteor - Reduced casting time to 2 seconds. Reduced recharge to 20 seconds.

Water Magic

Ice Spear - Added 25% armor penetration.

Mirror of Ice {E} - Reduced recharge time to 1 second.

Swirling Aura - Reduced recharge time to 30 seconds.

Ward Against Harm {E} - Decreased bonus armor versus fire to 5...16...20. Increased bonus armor versus all other damage types to 10...35...50.

No Attribute

Glyph of Sacrifice - Decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.

Notes on Elementalist: Elementalists in PvE suffer from serious stagnation in build variation, I would say more so than most other classes. Unless you've got a Fire based skill bar, you probably won't be lasting long in any PUGs. The suggestions I've made here may seem overpowering at first, but I'm just bringing things up to a power level close to where skills like Rodgort's Invocation, Searing Flames, Savannah Heat, Meteor Shower and others apparantly intend to stay. With a wider range of options in an Ele's arsenal, a wider range of Elementalist builds will become accepted as... acceptable.

I also minutely lowered the power of Ether Renewal... it's a little bit too perfect as it is; with this change it will still easily be runnable, and it will retain it's usefullness, however at least some effort will be required to maintain positive energy gain.

Assassin

Critical Strikes

Locust's Fury {E} - Changed functionality to "For 10...30...35 seconds, you have an additional 25...60...80% chance to double strike while using daggers."

Seeping Wound {E} - Increased range to hex target foe and all adjacent foes. Decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.

Sharpen Daggers - Decreased casting time to 1 second. Decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.

Way of the Master - Decreased duration to 30 seconds. Decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.

Dagger Mastery

Temple Strike {E} - Decreased energy cost to 10.

Deadly Arts

Expose Defenses - Decreased energy cost to 5. Decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.

Expunge Enchantments - Reduced recharge to 15 seconds.

Mark of Insecurity {E} - Reduced recharge to 5 seconds.

Shadow Prison {E} - Reduced recharge to 15 seconds. Increased duration to 1...8...11.

Shround of Silence {E} - Increased duration to 1...5...6. Decreased recharge to 15 seconds.

Signet of Deadly Corrutption - Removed maximum damage limit.

Signet of Shadows - Reduced recharge to 15 seconds.

Siphon Speed - Reduced recharge time to 20 seconds.

Shadow Arts

Death's Charge - Reduced recharge time to 15 seconds.

Feigned Neutrality - Reduced recharge time to 20 seconds.

Shadow Form {E} - Reduced duration to 5...16...20 seconds. Reduced recharge to 45 seconds.

Smoke Powder Defense - Reduced recharge time to 15 seconds.

Unseen Fury - Modified skill type to Enchantment Spell. Reduced recharge time to 30 seconds.

Way of the Fox - Reduced recharge time to 20 seconds.

No Attribute

Aura of Displacement {E} - Reduced recharge time to 10 seconds.

Shadow Walk - Decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.

Notes on Assassin: These changes should allow Assassins to finally make a slightly better reputation for themselves in PvE. The changes I have outlined here for them allow players quite a bit more creativity in their builds, which is something that has really never been allowed due to the structure of the class.

I also took a little power out of Shadow Form; with the variables set this way, it is still possible to maintain indefinitely, however it requires a good deal more management of skills, energy and timing.

Ritualist

Spawning Power

Attuned Was Songkai {E} - Reduced recharge time to 30 seconds.

Ritual Lord {E} - Changed functionality to "For 30 seconds, your Rituals cast 15...40...60% faster and recharge 15...63...75% faster.

Spirit Channeling {E} - Reduced recharge time to 20 seconds.

Channeling

Channeled Strike - Reduced casting time to 1 second.

Spirit Rift - Reduced casting time to 1 second.

Communing

Shelter - Reduced energy cost to 15.

Soothing - Reduced energy cost to 15.

Wanderlust {E} - Reduced recharge time to 30 seconds.

Xinrae's Weapon {E} - Reduced duration to 1...4...6 seconds. Reduced recharge time to 10 seconds.

Restoration Magic

Death Pact Signet - Reduced casting time to 2 seconds.

Resilient Was Xiko - Changed functionality to "...When you drop her ashes, you lose 1...3...4 conditions and 1...2...3 hexes."

Spirit Light Weapon {E} - Increased duration to 20 seconds.

Notes on Ritualist: Ritualists are an astonishingly powerful class that is frequently dismissed in PvE. Though there are certainly viable (and very powerful) Ritualist jobs already available in PvE, these skill changes will offer the player more choice as far as skill diversity. Also, many Ritualist skills were ruined long ago due to their overpowered nature in PvP... hopefully these can be more fully restored to us in the non-competitive world.

Paragon

Leadership

Burning Shield - Reduced recharge time to 8 seconds.

Hexbreaker Aria - Decreased adrenaline cost to 6. Decreased casting time to 1 second.

Leader's Comfort - Decreased casting time to 1 second.

Command

"Fall Back!" - Increased duration to 2...12...16.

"Go For The Eyes!" - Removed recharge.

"Incoming!" - Increased duration to 1...6...8 seconds.

Godspeed - Decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.

Song of Concentration - Reduced adrenaline cost to 5. Decreased casting time to 1 second. Removed recharge.

Motivation

"The Power is Yours!" {E} - Increased energy gained to 1...14...18.

Notes on Paragon: This really is already the most powerful class in PvE, barely edging in front of the Necromancer. The suggestions here are only really minor clean-up to bring things back into play that may have been ruined by a long-forgotten PvP centered nerf.

Dervish

Mysticism

Heart of Fury - Reduced recharge to 15 seconds.

Imbue Health - Removed maximum health.

Mystic Corruption - Removed maximum percentage.

Pious Fury - Increased duration to 0...10...12 seconds.

Earth Prayers

Ebon Dust Aura {E} - Decreased recharge to 15 seconds.

Mystic Sandstorm - Removed maximum damage.

Shield of Force - Reduced recharge time to 8 seconds.

Scythe Mastery

Eremite's Attack - Removed maximum bonus damage.

Mystic Sweep - Removed maximum bonus damage.

Wind Prayers

Guiding Hands - Increased number of attacks to 1...5...7.

Mystic Twister - Reduced recharge to 8 seconds.

Onslaught {E} - Changed functionality to "Elite Skill. For 3...17...22 seconds, you attack 25% faster, move 25% faster, deal 25% more damage in melee combat, and your attack skills recharge 25% faster."

Test of Faith - Reduced recharge to 8 seconds.

Notes on Dervish: Dervishes suffer from a severe lack of purpose in PvE, even with Eternal Aura and an Avatar of choice. These buffs would make Dervishes quite a bit more threatening as damage dealers. Most of my changes here were to allow more power to things that were obviously capped for fear of loss of PvP balance.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And there you have my suggestions for improving the currently stagnated PvE meta. With a complete split between PvE and PvP skill lists, it's really only a matter of punching in the variables to allow every class a great deal more build diversity than has ever before been realistically possible.

I appreciate all well thought out and carefully presented feedback, and I'm sure anyone from ANet who reads this thread would also be very interested to see how people respond to these possible alterations to a game we all either love, or would be very interested in loving again.

Sincerely,
A loyal and concerned player,
Sha Noran

fenix · Jun 28, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Amazing post, everyone has GOT to read this.

manitoba1073 · Jun 28, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Amazing post, everyone has GOT to read this.

yeap read it. got my chuckles from it.

Thanks Sha. Sneaky thing you got going here.

Trax Reborn · Jun 28, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05

1 nerf thru the whole list and its to SF which most people are in agreement with. some are just pointless(swirling arua for example, still useless)

FlamingMetroid · Jun 28, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05

I'm pretty sure I'd keep MS/DB'ing with those assassin updates :/ Spiking and all the other wonderful things people used assassins for aren't nearly as useful in PvE. If anything, sins' reputations in PvE would fall, because of all the people that would think they could run a spike build effectively.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 28, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

I honestly cannot tell if this is a joke post or a serious post. There are hardly any nerfs (Only noticed one to Hamstring and Shadow Form, but Shadow Form got a buff in the recharge as well so its basically unchanged cept you have to be more observant to maintain).

Add a few more nerfs imo, and don't forget to cover the PvE-only skills. With a few adjustments this would be well. Of what I could tell it just removed all the nerfs from skills that were placed on them due to PvP. But you must have more nerfs. Mainly on Paragons, they are very powerful as you stated, so I don't see why they get 0 nerfs.

Your suggestion is useful for only when considering Buffs, but as I said before, many times, needs more nerfs.

@ fenix: I know its not all about nerfing everything, there must be an equal amount of buffs and nerfs, and with the recent buffs PvE has had, it needs a fair amount of nerfs as well. Nerf the overpowering skills (Shadow Form and Ursan are the two needing them the most) and Buff the underpowered.

The buffing has been taken care of in this thread, so now the nerfing is needed. Never meant to remove some buffs.

fenix · Jun 28, 2008, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Balancing skills is not purely about nerfing everything. It's about improving the skill spectrum to allow for a wider number of valid builds, rather than the usual Ursan, Paraway or Necros.

Nude Nira · Jun 28, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Wonderful post, I really hope Anet takes some time out of their "busy" schedule to sit down and read this, it'd really upset me if they didnt.

Kudos to you.

Riceboi · Jun 28, 2008, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Nerf shadowform? No thanks!

garethporlest18 · Jun 28, 2008, 06:45 AM // 06:45

I still wouldn't use Tease, I think that condition it has needs to be removed entirely and functionality changed a bit. I would like to see something like "Target touched foe takes 30..60..90 damage, if that foe was casting a spell, that spell is interrupted and takes 12..24..36 seconds longer to recharge." 10e, 2c, 15r.

And I think Amity might be a bit too strong, but other than that, it's pretty good stuff. I also wish you would have covered the PvE skills though. A lot of those need nerfs and SF should have a 60 second recharge.

I would also add Forked Arrows, 8 second recharge and 5 energy cost. And maybe add a little bit of conditional damage to Quick Shot, "Does +2..5..8 damage if your health is above 50%" And make it 3-5s recharge, can't remember what it is off hand, thought 1s.

I was also hoping Anet would use the split to up some of those non used skills but they just upped used skills. Hopefully they do take care of some of those unused skills.

slowerpoke · Jun 28, 2008, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Promoting diverse play with buffs to many skills is probably a better way to balance, athough its more difficult. The chance of creating new overpowered combinations is greater.

It might be easier for the balancer just to nerf the few problematic skills during an update, however the better approach would be to make the less powerful skills more viable and give players a range of choices.

upier · Jun 28, 2008, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Charm Animal - Added a pet ressurection funtionality.
Revive Animal - Removed range; reduced casting time to 4 seconds

Pretty much everything I want.

oliverrr1989 · Jun 28, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

The post was quite long...so I paid attention mostly to the dervish suggestions.

Heart of Fury 24/7? Yes plz!

You made onslaught a tad too powerful though, don't forget its in wind prayers...with power like that a lot of wammos and sins and rangers would abuse it too.
You also forgot to make Melandru 15 energy!!! 25 energy really bugs me in PvE, and Grenth is still a bit pointless here.
Andddd GoLE is already way useful for secondaries not much need to buff.

All that said, nice work

hope Anet reads your suggestions and thinks about some of them.

Targuil · Jun 28, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Why i didn't see any nerfs on pve skills?

Sha Noran · Jun 28, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

I still wouldn't use Tease, I think that condition it has needs to be removed entirely and functionality changed a bit. I would like to see something like "Target touched foe takes 30..60..90 damage, if that foe was casting a spell, that spell is interrupted and takes 12..24..36 seconds longer to recharge." 10e, 2c, 15r.

Good idea there, too. And hi Gareth, it's been a long time, friend. =]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oliverrr1989

The post was quite long...so I paid attention mostly to the dervish suggestions.

Heart of Fury 24/7? Yes plz!

You made onslaught a tad too powerful though, don't forget its in wind prayers...with power like that a lot of wammos and sins and rangers would abuse it too.
You also forgot to make Melandru 15 energy!!! 25 energy really bugs me in PvE, and Grenth is still a bit pointless here.
Andddd GoLE is already way useful for secondaries not much need to buff.

All that said, nice work

hope Anet reads your suggestions and thinks about some of them.

This is also particularly accurate criticism and balance concept.

So far, this thread has been a really impressive example of how a calm discussion can go on a forum. Since there are some things in PvE that could use a negative spectrum balancing (ahem... nerf...), I will be happy to attempt and address those in a "Part 2" of this thread, however it will take me a few days to organize and type up my thoughts. For now, try and focus on just what I've laid out so far; I promise I'll post that other part as soon as I get it typed up. =]

Pleikki · Jun 28, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Yeah id probably like that cus then enemies would be even harder in hm and i like it!

Chthon · Jun 28, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

1. I'm not sure I'm on board with your "let's buff everything so no one's left out" premise. I need to think about it some more.

2. The last time you said something that struck me as so totally absurd that no rational person could seriously be suggesting it, I called you a troll, only to learn that you really did honestly see things that differently from me. In the spirit of respectfully learning from that experience, I'm going to take your post at face value here.

3. One thing that struck me as painfully absent from your list was removing that #$%@* timer from Soul Reaping. For reasons I've posted far too many times now, it really has to go. It's alright if it comes with an elegant counteracting nerf, but the timer has to go. (What nerf you ask? Probably remove SR triggering on minions + drastically reduce the cost of minion spells. That would break the overpowered synergy that powers Sabway.)

(On second thought... Soul Reaping is FAR less powerful than E.Renewal at this point. If we're operating under "let's buff everything so no one's left out," then a case could be made for just removing the timer with no countervailing nerf.)

4. The other major necromancer issue is the minion cap. It was put in place at Faction's release to limit the effectiveness of minion builds in AB, so the PvE/PvP split robs it of its purpose. The #1 reason for such a buff is simply the fun factor. If you ever got a chance to play a MM before the nerf, you know what I'm talking about -- it was fun as all hell. Also, I'm kind of interested to see how the interplay between unlimited minions and BotM's and OoU's scaling life sacs works out.

5. One thing that strikes me generally about your suggestions is that they share a-net's tendency to buff gawd-awful-crappy skills into merely crappy skills. If a buff doesn't make something viable that wasn't before, it's not really a buff in any meaningful sense.

6. All-in-all, I need to put some more thought into what you've posted. Stay tuned for a reply in the next few days.

fenix · Jun 28, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Since I knew this was coming, I thought I would add some info in terms of my opinion, as well as do the friend thing and critique (although, for the most part Sha knows what I think)

The first thing to note about this thread, is that it DOES look at PvE as needing proper balance. Sure, you can grab some Ursan players, or Paragons and blow up the game, but that's not how it is meant to be played. Further more, this thread isn't meant to buff everything to the level of Ursan and Paragons, it's meant to simply provide more options for players. Think back to before NF and PvE skills, and the builds that people ran. There was much more variation in teams that could be used. The game should be balanced with this in mind, to bring players away from overpowered PvE skills and back to the skill > time aspect of the game.

Warrior;

As I have primarily played Warrior in PvE I feel that this is the section I am best discussing. For too long people have viewed Warriors as either 'Tanks' or as only good for Ursan. This is simply because players are not looking outside the box - and why should they with the PvE skill options available, or the past success of 'tank and spank' builds.

I think that the changes to the Strength skills are a very good idea, as they allow a Warrior to bring skills such as "I Will Survive" and "I Meant To Do That" for defensive purposes, therefore taking pressure off the monks to either spam heals or pile on Prot when the Warrior overextends to kill something. I can definitely see myself bringing Endure Pain and "I Will Survive" in order to push right up in order to kill a target, and not worry about putting any stress on my monks - especially heroes.

The Axe changes are long overdue. As the changes were needed in PvP, it was understandable that Anet implemented them. Now that balance has been split, they should definitely be made into proper interrupts. Spiking aside, it would be valuable to run an Axe build where you can bring interrupts such as Agonizing or Critical Chop, which serve as a source of damage. One change that I would suggest would be updating Eviscerate to;

If Eviscerate hits, you strike for +1...32...40 damage and inflict a Deep Wound, lowering your target's maximum Health by 20% for 5...20...25 seconds.

This would bring it almost all the way back to where it originally was, and although very overpowered in PvP, would not be that much of a worry for PvE, where Ursan still exists. This would also allow players to approach the Warrior with more of a PvP view in terms of builds - which are just as strong in PvP due to the focus on defense as passive, and spikes or pressure as the form of damage.

Both the Hammer elites I think were in need of something to bring them into PvE. Dev Hammer has been used successfully in PvP for a long time, and is viable in PvE, just not as attractive when compared to Earthshaker. I think Deep Wound will give it that extra something to refresh it. Enraged Smash is also a very fun skill to use, and would be even more so with the damage limit removed.

For the Sword changes, I must admit I'm a little curious as to the Hamstring change. This aside, I feel that the change to Hundred Blades is a very good one. As mentioned, Sun and Moon Slash has been superior to Hundred Blades simply because you strike twice, and are unblockable. Although Hundred Blades is tied to Energy as opposed to Adrenaline, it would pair very well with other HIGH Adren skills, such as Final Thrust, or (dare I say it) "Save Yourselves!". This would allow the Warrior to concentrate his damage in either LARGE packets (Galrath Slash, Final Thrust, etc) or use the extra Adren for utilities.

"Charge!" has always been a favourite skill of mine, and being able to bring it on a 2nd Warrior and have almost permanent speed buffs is a very positive thing when I need to rush (such as meeting time limits in missions). The "Fear Me!" change, as with the "Shields Up!" and "Victory Is Mine!" changes are obvious, simply reverting the PvP balances. "Retreat!" I think could be very helpful in areas such as DoA, where you may need to pull back due to overaggro or a wipe. I also think that Deflect Arrows would pair well with the Strength skills I mentioned above in order to provide a Warrior with some passive defense to allow for more aggressive play.

As Sha has mentioned, I think there should be attention devoted to taking Warrior away from simply Dslash-SY or Earthshaker-SY. Being able to rush in and spike down targets is a very good change.

Ranger:

As I have not played Ranger outside of PvP (and even then not often) I feel that my view on Ranger is just that - a view. I can only comment on what I see others doing when playing the class. One thing that I can comment on is the overuse of Barrage. The change to remove the preparation part of the skill will definitely make it more attractive to myself, as it will be more than just a skill to see lots of numbers.

Monk:

I do agree with Sha with the Monk changes, builds such as HB and WoH have been around for a long time, and there should be a wider range of valid skills. Aura of Faith I think is an excellent change, it allows monks to step away from Healers Boon and more towards Aura of Faith and a prot build. This would pair well with Spirit Bond and other Prot skills that offer up heals, as Healers Boon does not affect these. I think also that Boon Signet would be a very strong skill to bring if you were going to run an almost entirely Prot build. You would then be able to have strong energy management as well as a reasonably spammable spot heal. I do feel that the Heal should be buffed slightly, to make it more on par with skills such as Orison of Healing.

Smiting Elite skills have for a long time been bad. That's not necessarily the fault of Anet, but it's just the way it is. I think that these buffs would at least give them some exposure to players, even if they aren't used much more than they are currently, players would have more options for elite skills in areas that require smiting builds (Shards of Orr anyone?).

I especially like the change to Amity. Although it seems that this could be overpowered, bringing an elite that stops you being the target of damage cannot be easily abused. It would be a good option for a build such as a Smiter, or a build designed for party buffs. Mark of Protection would be at least a little bit more interesting after this change also.

Necromancer:

I hold the view that Necromancers are still quite strong - even overpowered - because of the Soul Reaping mechanic. This aside, I do not think that there should be any changes to Minions. They are fine as they are, and although players were quite bitter at the Minion and Soul Reaping changes, there is no need to revert or buff them. One of my friends has recently has quite a lot of HA success using a Me/N with Lingering Curse, a build that lots of high rank balanced teams have chosen to 'borrow' from my friend. This build could become more viable in PvE with the change suggested, especially in zones such as those with Grawl, where in Hard Mode the sheer amount of healing can cause you to lose.

Mesmer:

I will leave the Mesmer suggestions to someone more experienced (cue Avarre or Sab?). I will, however, say that the elite changes would definitely prompt me to add a Mesmer hero to my Hard Mode builds. The changes add that extra something to make Mesmer very attractive in PvE, especially for valuable shut down. I do like the idea of making Illusionary Weaponry a Weapon Spell, and Mantra of Recall a stance, as these are two skills that really suffer from being easily removed.

Elementalist:

This is the section I was very interested in reading. I feel that running a Fire Ele, although very strong and successful, is becoming quite stale.

Every since seeing Ether Prism used in GvG, and myself using it in several matches, I was interested in the viability of this skill when paired with a very high energy set. This would allow me to bring skills such as Rodgorts Invocation, and spam them while under a high energy (120+) set and then still manage to keep my energy close to full with Ether Prism. The Ether Renewal change is very good, as currently it is far too strong. Spamming 10e spells infinitely explains itself. Glyph of Energy I think would be once again fun to run on a Mo/E for spamming skills such as Balthazar's Aura, or for maximising the effectiveness of skills such as Maelstrom where energy cost AND exhaustion are a large issue. Glyph Lesser I think would become a staple for literally every class after this change, as it would be better energy management than any other option. Could be overpowered, but really, there are larger issues in PvE than GoLE.

The changes to the Air line would be something that could definitely open up more possibilities for an Ele. Bringing a skill bar with Chain Lightning and Invoke Lightning would provide very strong AoE, and the Gale change brings it back to where I feel the skill should be. I think the only thing missing from this change would be to make Blinding Flash a longer Blind duration, and POSSIBLY making it 10 energy. Currently the options are either to bring hexes, or use an elite for blind, and I think Bflash could use a buff.

I have always liked the Earth line, as you can bring some very strong defensive skills as well as DOT AoE spells. This change opens up the ele further as a more viable option over the normal Savannah + 2 heats build. I currently use Churning Earth and Eruption for both defense and AoE in Hard Mode, as Fire sometimes does not work well enough (ie, Destroyers). I think the change to Magnetic Aura could be a little stronger, but then that would make Terratanking even more easy. The same goes for Kinetic Armor.

The suggested Fire changes seem to explain themselves. This evens up the damage line so that other skills are at similar levels to the current 'popular' ones.

The Water changes I think could be a little stronger. Currently the line is good, but just needs a bit of a buff to bring it more into the scope of things in terms of Ele bars. I think that Mirror of Ice would be a very good skill for Ele's who are more into the solo aspect of GW. It would allow them to bring a tanking build, and solo groups other than the normal melee, as the caster-only damage opens up a lot more options for farming. Although on first reading the proposed change I did not see where Sha was coming from, it is clearer to see that this appeals more towards players who enjoy farming. Swirling Aura I think is a similar issue. This skill should be either made so that you can tank with it, or made so that you can provide party defense with it. Even so, with a reduced recharge I know that there are places I could use a skill like this, just to provide defense to myself while I keep my heroes and hench flagged back in order to survive the first lot of attacks from a group. Ward Against Harm is a VERY nice skill in PvP, and I think this buff will make it more attractive in PvE as a defense for Monks, in areas where you cannot simply blow up a team and keep rushing. Sadly, with Ursan and similar PvE skills, this change would only provide a benefit for purist players who still prefer running balanced builds. Glyph Sac I think could also use a reduction in the amount of time it disables the spell you cast under it, just so that Glyph Sac ressing or Met Shower becomes a little stronger.

Assassin:

Myself being an avid fan of making Moebius less effective, I think these changes are a good start. Buffing the Deadly Arts line is something that should have been done, because skill bars such as the Dancing Daggers > Entangling Asp > Signet of Toxic Shock combo are VERY strong, but suffer because they are only single target. I think opening up the viability of strong spike combos will allow Assassins to act in of a role wherein they teleport in, remove certain targets from the field of battle, and teleport back (what I always envisioned for Assassins as Anet were designing them). I think the Temple Strike change is very good, as itself and Beguiling Haze have always been skills I felt were bordering on being excellent, due to the application of Daze and ability to follow up with a spike. This will allow the Assassin to more regularly use Temple Strike and not worry about the excessive energy cost.

I also feel that the Shadow Form change is VERY welcome, as we all know how bad an idea that has turned out to be...

Ritualist:

Although when they were first put into Guild Wars I was very much against the idea (and for good reason, they were heavily abused), I think that enough time and nerfs have passed that the Rit needs to be put back into the game in a positive way. Although Spirit Spamming is still an issue that I feel conflicted about, I still think that Ritualists should be given the option. Currently the Ritualist is plainly and simply a bitch role (and I have mentioned this before), in that the skills are either heals inferior to a monk (in most cases) or buffs for other characters. I think buffing Spirits will allow teams to drop almost all active defensive skills in favor of the strong passive defense. Also, buffing Channeled Strike and Spirit Rift I think are positive changes, and the issue of Rit Spike does not really apply in PvE.

Paragon:

I feel that Paragon is pretty much where it needs to be in terms of balance. Unfortunately that means that almost every Paragon has Save Yourselves and There's Nothing To Fear for spamming. I do agree with Sha though, that the only changes needed were the ones balanced for PvP. I am still unsure how you would go about balancing the other attribute lines (and NON-PvE skills) in order to make Paragon better, but not stronger.

Dervish:

Again, these are good changes. The Dervish currently has the capability of being the strongest melee class, but is slightly limited by the appear of perma-forms. Improving the defense offered by the Dervish, and also improving the ability to use a bar almost completely focused on spells (Mystic Sandstorm teleport spike, or similar builds) are good options to broaden the Dervish class. Mystic Sweep and Eremites Attack would both be very interesting to try out with the damage limits removed.

I think overall these changes are for the better. Although they do not overly buff skills, and do not do many nerfs, I feel that these issues will be dealt with in a follow up thread. The point is to take PvE balance one step at a time. The main point is to broaden your range of builds, and to open up the possibilities of builds that are not as standard as they currently are.

A Leprechaun · Jun 28, 2008, 08:24 AM // 08:24

I have to say that I think a lot of these changes would be pretty poor. I agree that people need to be able to use a wider range of skills without being mocked or kicked but you seem to have changed skills which are fine already as well as badly changing other skills.
I was mostly looking at the warrior skills but skimmed through the rest.

/notsigned

~A Leprechaun~

*edit* I'm not knocking all of it, there are a few good changes in there.